SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome

Welcome And Handing God The Mic

SPEAKER_00 0:09

and thanks for joining us on this episode of the Midweek Podcast, brought to you by a Fresh Wind Church. Each week, our team brings you new content to help you take steps towards Jesus and discover more in Christ. Today's episode is hosted by Pastor Ryan.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Well, hey, welcome back to the Midweek Podcast. Pastor Ryan joined as always with Pastor Tim, and we are wrapping up our series that we've been in for the past four weeks, Mike'ed up. And we've been asking or looking at some of the questions that God asked us. And so in hard questions, uh, we got to ask our questions to him, and now we've handed him the mic. He gets to ask the questions to us. And uh this one this past week was was challenging, man. It it kind of I I the way I said on Sunday is it's the most important question people are gonna answer is who do you say I am? And to wrestle with, man, who is Jesus to you? And I think uh get a lot of opinions, especially in culture, uh lot of a lot of thoughts about who Jesus is. You were telling me before we jumped on the podcast today, there's a there's a guy claiming to be uh Yeshua Ben David, yeah, Jesus the son of David, running for prime minister right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yeah, that's crazy that we would see something like that because um well, we grew up in the age of Hollywood and all the um different ideas of what the end times are gonna look like. And so when someone shows up and he this guy's gotta be seven foot tall and he's um well spoken, and he's just saying, I'm Jesus, I'm the Messiah, and I'm gonna run for prime minister right there in front of everybody, you know. Uh don't you know, don't you know about Revelation? Don't you know what you're saying? Well, obviously he doesn't know about Revelation, he's uh Jewish, so he only knows up to Malachi. Malachi, right. Yeah, so um he's saying things that's making all Christians go, what? You know? So uh it's interesting to to see that kind of stuff, but we have uh it comes down to that question, who do you say that I am?

unknown 2:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

And we are all faced with that.

unknown 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Tozer

Who Do You Say Jesus Is

SPEAKER_01 2:38

said, what comes to mind when you think about God is the most important thing about you. And so we wanted to end the series at that spot where we all have to to take a minute and really contemplate, reflect, man, who is Jesus to me?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

I think the the impetus of this entire series, I think that's the right word. Somebody look that up and comment. Um I think is that uh place in Isaiah where he says, Come, let's figure this out. Though you're he says, let's argue this out. Uh though your sins may be as scarlet, I can make them white as snow. I think this is when Jesus or when God asks these questions throughout the Bible, this is hey, we need to argue about this.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

You know, and this one is the one that we need to argue about the most. Who do you say that who I who am I to you? Right. And this is an important question.

Does Your Week Match Your Words

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Because a lot of times when we answer that, he might be this right now while we're at church. We've been through um worship and we're very sensitive to the Holy Spirit. Uh, but Monday morning, I might not be acting like that's who I really think he is.

unknown 4:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Well, that's what I brought up. I was like, so who do you say he is? And I was like, I, you know, we we're all sitting in church, so we know the right answer, most likely. But what about your Monday through Saturday? You know, does that back it up? Does your bank account and your calendar and your browser history, does it all back up who you say Jesus is? And then, you know, that's kind of when the rubber hits the road and you're like, oh boy. Uh maybe, maybe he's I might I might know the right words about him and I might know how to say it, but I don't know if that's who he really is to me.

The Matthew 16 Turning Point

SPEAKER_01 4:37

And so, you know, I love how Jesus starts this. Who do people say I am? And he kind of takes the the poll, you know. And the disciples got some answers. You know, maybe John, some say Elijah, some say Jeremiah, one of the other prophets. And so obviously, people are talking about Jesus. He's going around, he's doing some stuff. People don't quite know how he can do it, where this is all coming from, but they're forming opinions about who he is. And so they're they're trying to wrap their heads around. And like I said in the sermon, it they're not calling him most. I mean, the crowd there, as the disciples were kind of giving the answers, were we not like he's some crazed lunatic. I mean, these are the heroes of the Jewish faith, you know. So I think people had a pretty high view of Jesus, most of them. Now the religious leaders were all ticked and upset. There were people who said, you know, you got a demon. That was usually the religious leaders. Jesus is like, how's a demon gonna cast out the what that kingdom can't stand? But most people had a pretty high view of who Jesus was, and yet they were wrong. They they stopped short. And so Jesus has to turn to the disciples and force them to settle this. Well, who do you say I am? This is we've heard what all the people say. But who do you say? And that's when Peter jumps up speaking for the rest of them. You are the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of the living God. And what I was hoping to drive to or towards in the sermon is when Peter says that, at the same time he's saying all those other things are not. Right. These things can't be. And and remember where he's standing, right there at the gate of Hades, there's you know, all these pagan idols everywhere. People would come here to sacrifice and all kinds of stuff to God Pan and they're saying, Yeah, all this isn't it. It's all you. You are the Messiah. And so forcing people to really wrestle with that and make it that personal.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

And

Many Roads And “I Am The Way”

SPEAKER_02 6:44

we have become a nation of there's many roads to heaven. And it's interesting that none of the other religions actually have a heaven unless they're modeled after um Christianity. Um, like Islam is modeled after Christianity and Judaism. And uh they they kind of do their own spin, but without Christianity, there is no heaven and there is no hell. And it's uh it's one of those ideas that everybody has just taken. We like that truth that there's a heaven. And uh so we're gonna yeah, I believe there's an afterlife. I think there's something more. Um but there's many ways to that. According to what?

unknown 7:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

According to what? Well, you know, if you're Hind No, it's according to you. There's no way out of answering that question. According to me, there's more ways. But according to the guy who made them confess him as the Messiah and the Son of God, he said, I am the way. Right. And that is uh something that we all we need it refreshed in us.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Well, we take it for granted, right? You know this idea of heaven, what you're saying here is so important. We wouldn't have an idea or concept of heaven apart from from this, from this Jewish Christian faith. We wouldn't even know that it exists. So yeah, everyone's like, Well, yeah, I like that. It makes life sound purposeful, there's something ahead, uh, makes death more bearable. This isn't the end, you know. We go, but I just want to get there my own way. You know, I don't you're saying I gotta do no, I don't want to do all that. So we like the idea, but yeah, no, no, no. Jesus said, I am the way. You gotta come through me. He says, You try to get in any other way. You're a thief, you're a robber. There's one way, right? And it's me.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Uh so it's a it's a confrontation that Jesus wants to have an argument he wants to have with you. This is not about you, this is about me. What you have to do is receive the truth of who I am and let me do it for you.

unknown 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

And that is a that's a tough thing for mankind to do because we're all working our way to heavens. If you're if you're a Catholic, you're I'm going to the sacraments, I'm I'm doing all this stuff. Um I've been baptized, and hey, it hasn't been great, but I'll burn off some of these sins in purgatory, and then I'll be there. Well, that's all about you. That's all about you, not about him. And that that moves every ever in every corner of not just Catholicism, but Eastern Orthodox and Protestant, uh, whatever type of Protestant you are, there's somebody out there pointing their finger at you saying, Well, I go to church more than he does, I pray more than he does, I must be okay. No, no, no. Jesus says, No, you argue with me, not them.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Right. Who do you say I am?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Who do you say I am?

A Family Conversation After Church

SPEAKER_01 10:15

So got to the end of the sermon and uh thought it went pretty well. Uh I thought it was great. Well, thank you. Uh it was exciting. Uh we had uh in both services, we had people um making professions of faith. Uh I think in the second service, there was it looked like a whole family raised there. Yeah, all four or five of them sitting there in that row, raised their hand. I thought, man, the whole family. Eternity just changed and makes me cry just thinking about it. Um so God was moving. And then I got in the car and uh Joy had to leave to take Ellie to her soccer game um like as soon as church ended, so she knew I had to kind of wrap some stuff up. So Ty, Gavin, and I, we were driving to the game after uh separately, and I just asked the boys, it's like, so how'd you guys think the sermon went today? That the I communicated okay, and Ty goes, yeah, yeah, I thought it was good. What was the question? I was like, the question was the sermon. Apparently I did not maybe do as good as I thought, or he wasn't listening as good as he said. I'm not sure which, but the question was, Who do you say I am? And uh, and I hope, I hope you'll take time to really personalize that, you know. On Sunday I try to get people to picture, you know, if Jesus walked up to your chair and asked you the question, what would you say? And I hope you'll wrestle with that a little bit this week. Who do I really say that he is? But that was only part of the the passage that we dug into on Sunday, and there was just more that this is the other thing Ty said to me, Dad, that's not a very long passage. How did you preach for an hour? Like, man, I'm doing real good with a lot of sun here. A lot of support from the family, huh? So I want to read the the passage in in its entirety here that we went over on Sunday. There is a couple, well, verse 19 I left out completely. Verse uh 18. I I didn't dive too deep into to some of the other stuff that comes along. And so I want to give everyone the context, and then today I want to talk about kind of three three things. Um what are the keys of the kingdom? What is the rock? And and why do Catholics and Protestants disagree about Peter's role in the church? And so those are the three things I want to talk about on the podcast today. Let me read the scripture passage for you. This comes

Reading The Full Passage And Debates

SPEAKER_01 12:55

from Matthew chapter 16, starting in verse 13. If you're following along at home, uh using the CSB version here, that's what we use uh most Sundays at church. And so this is what it says when Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, Who do people say the Son of Man is? They replied, Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. But you, he asked them, Who do you say that I am? And so that's where we spent most of our time on Sunday. And Simon Peter answered, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God. And Jesus responded, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father in heaven. I also say, and so this is where we're going to start diving in, verses eighteen and nineteen. I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Verse 19, I skipped completely on Sunday. Here it is. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven. Then he gave the disciples orders to tell no one that he was the Messiah, which is the most Jesus thing to do there. Peter finally gets it right, has one of his you know moments of shining brightness instead of you know sticking his foot in his mouth like he does so many times. And then Jesus goes, All right, now I need you to keep that to yourself. Don't be telling nobody about what we just talked about. But a couple big ideas in here. Jesus looks at Peter and says, You are Peter. And then he says, On this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. And so we need to talk about and decide what is the rock? Is that Peter? Is that what Peter confesses? Is it something else? What is Jesus talking about there? And then he says, I'll give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, whatever you loosed on earth will have been loosed in heaven. Well, what are these keys? What is Peter supposed to be doing with them? Is it only Peter who has a set of these keys? Is Peter going around making decisions and then God now has to you know oblige and do what Peter says? Because that's a weird relationship if that's going on. What is the deal with these keys? And so we have a lot of opinions uh about these couple verses. It

What “On This Rock” Means

SPEAKER_01 15:31

has been argued about, you know, we talk about this all the time, Tim. Uh this past Sunday, you or yeah, Sunday night, you did uh the story of scripture in our M series class. Uh and you said, and this is an ancient faith. We've been arguing about this stuff for 2,000 years.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

I don't think we've we know so uh actually we know very little about history, but what kind of history that we have written down, we think we know it backwards and forwards, and we don't realize how long 2,000 years is. We we really don't. The question of uh Peter being important to the early church is not a question. He really was. Uh a lot of the early church follow uh fathers point to this point saying that this is where our apostolic apostolic leadership was rested in, in Peter and in Paul. And that's where we we want to rest. Then we've argued into that um all the way to the third and fourth century um what that actually means, and um and the Catholics decided it meant that Peter was the Pope, he's the head of the faith, he's got the keys, and then he delivers his authority down to his bishops, who then deliver the authority to the rest of the Christian faith. And uh so that was the Western Church, the Roman church. Um they kind of consolidated that in about the third and fourth century, although it was completely talked about, I mean, right then, the first century, second century. Clement of Rome talks about it. So uh, but about third and fourth century, that's a long time ago, guys. Yeah. Um, so this is not something they made up in the 50s. Uh they made some stuff up in the 50s, but uh back in back in this time, this was this was really close. Um, and our church fathers talked about it then, and they kind of locked it down in about the fourth century with Leo the I don't think he was the great. He was something else. One of one of the popes kind of laid it down at that time. Leo the mediocre. I don't think I don't think that's it. Leo the average. Well, the Eastern Church, Egypt, everything uh to the east, Russian that way, Eastern Orthodox Church, they said, no, no, no. What yeah? Well, we we get how important he was, but no, that's not. So you guys are just gonna say, oh, since we're in Rome and Peter was in Rome and now we're the boss? No, it's not happening. So that's the uh Eastern Orthodox and Protestants say you've interpreted that scripture wrong. Peter is a rock that is gonna be a part of the building that's gonna be set on the the stone, which is the confession Peter made. You are Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

And I think that's an important distinction. And and I was trying to to get us there a little bit on on Sunday without diving too deep into it. Um this is what we do with this this statement here and what Peter says and who Peter is is important because it has completely kind of separated the Christian and there's lots of denominations, don't get me wrong, but I mean really into two primary things here between Protestantism and Catholicism. And then within Protestantism, there's all kinds of stuff going on too. There's lots of different branches there. But really, the Catholics were the only ones that kind of went this way with Peter and the Pope. And so is Peter the Pope? Is that what Jesus was saying? You are the rock. And we've had and and I've heard pastors uh over the years argue this point that when you dig into the Greek, he says, You are Petros, Peter, and on this Petra rock, I will build my church. And a lot of a lot of again, I and I think well-meaning people, uh, they're coming to the text and they look at that and they say, Well, petra is not the same word as petros, and so you know, petros, peter means stone, and petra means rock, and so on Peter, you're a stone, and on this rock I'm gonna build. I think we need to be careful there, and so the reason I'm bringing this up, and I didn't bring it up in the sermon I told Tim before we got on here, is like I've felt like I was gonna be out in some water. I wasn't sure I could swim in here.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

It's it's a difficult thing because there's a layer of what we teach you here at our church, and we try to be um give clarity on things that are very clear, and we want to teach you those things. But when you're when you were uh tearing apart a word uh that is 2,000 years old, um you run into things like you're talking about now. You wouldn't call a man Petra. Right. So that that's the whole point here is it's a masculine, it's a it's a female term.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

A feminine word, right would never be used for a male's name. And so like senorita. People over the years have argued this point and said, well, these are two different words, and so he can't be talking about Peter. And you get into that conversation with a Catholic who knows what they're talking about, they'll tear you apart. Right. Jesus most likely was not speaking Greek, he would have been speaking Aramaic. The word in Aramaic is the same exact word. Right. So when he says you are Peter, he uses the word when he says, and upon this rock, it's the same word he used for Peter.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

So when Matthew was writing this down. He remembered what Jesus said or that he called Peter Kaifa or Rock. And then when he wrote it down in Greek, he used the Greek word for rock. So the best definition would be that these two words are the same word. Yeah. Just because he translated it from Aramaic, which didn't have two separate words. And now we don't know even if that's true. Correct. Right? They might have to. This is those deep waters. I was like, I don't know if I could swim in on a service. You know, we we don't know if one of the disciples said, What do you mean he's the rock and you're the rock? And you know, what are you talking about? No, that's not what I meant. I meant this. And that didn't get recorded. So we don't know. Um, but at the same time, um, if there's not clarity, we don't want to teach it to you.

unknown 23:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

You know, it's someone was telling me that women have one less rib because they took a rib from Adam. And somebody said that sometime, and it I heard it when I was a kid, and I'm still hearing it today. Okay, we need to we need to be clear on what's clear, and what's not clear, we need to point out and say that's not clear. That doesn't give you the right to decide what it means because you have to interpret scripture with other scripture. So uh what Protestants hold is when Jesus said, Upon this rock I build my church, um, he was talking about Peter's confession of faith that you are the Son of the Living God. And that is what he asked us to believe.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Well, and this is what the whole section is really about, right? He starts with, Who do people say I am? Then who do you say that I am? And so the question is really about that confession. He's drawing this out of them. It would be it's almost weird for Jesus to switch from talking about that confession to now I'm teaching this whole doctrine that's gonna lay out the church for the next 2,000, 3,000 years. Yeah. Well, what were we talking about? And so one of the things that we we teach around here often, and especially if you come to the next uh M series class, we're gonna talk teach about how to study the Bible, how to keep it in context, read scripture faithfully. But you have to do two things, and Pastor Tim said one is you have to interpret scripture with scripture, and two, you have to keep it in context. So, what is the context of this passage here? And it's about the confession. Who do you say I am? And so Jesus is making a play on words here. Sure, you are Peter, you're the rock. And on this rock, I'm gonna build my church and the gates of Hades, which they're standing in front of as kind of this visual illustration, will not prevail against it. The context is all centered on the confession. So then you move and you okay, well, let's interpret scripture with scripture. And I I read two verses on Sunday, and these are two of many. But the psalmist said this in Psalm 18, too the Lord is my rock. So when a Jewish person heard that, they would equate rock with the Lord. He's the rock. Peter told the Corinthians, no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid down. That foundation is Jesus Christ. Well, if the foundation is Jesus Christ, again, then at the same time you're saying it cannot be Peter.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Right. Clarity here. I want to jump in. He says Jesus Christ, and that's not Jesus' last name. He's saying when he says Jesus Christ, he's saying this is the Messiah, the Son of God.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Okay, just want to throw that in there for clarity.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah. And I think I talked about that on a Christ is not his last name. It's a title. He's the king, he's the Messiah. He, Jesus, is the foundation, which means Peter is not the foundation. And so when we keep scripture in context of the passage that it's in, when we interpret scripture with scripture, all of a sudden this idea of Peter being the first pope in this long succession of popes starts to fall apart pretty quick because there's just not a lot of grounds for it. And one of the things I tell people all the time is you have to be really careful about building a doctrine or a theology off of one verse.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Or even two verses. There's a lot of scripture that we have. I mean, the Bible, you called it on Sunday night, it's a library. There's 66 books here full of scripture verses, and they all have to say the same thing. They're not going to disagree. And so when you pull one out and just say, Well, we're going to build a doctrine around this thing, okay. Well, what about this? So you're saying Peter is the rock. Okay. Paul said the foundation is Jesus Christ, and you cannot lay another one. Well, all of a sudden, now one of those has to be wrong. Right? It can't be both. It's either Peter or it's Jesus. And so this is why it's so important that we do those two things. Keep it in context and interpret scripture with scripture. And so I think the Protestant view here that it is the confession that Peter makes, I believe, has the most scriptural feedback. Because as you keep it in context, you you look at the the rest of scripture, it just seems to be more supported that Jesus is the foundation. You cannot lay another one. Now, is Peter important? Yes. Is Peter important to the early church? Yes. Is Peter the foundation? No. No.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Anything you want to add to that? I think we covered it well. I think what's most important for you to understand that there's not just one or two ways that you can interpret this passage of scriptures, it's about six. So we believe that Paul, Peter, and the rest of the apostles saw this explanation of uh who do you say that I am as the foundational rock. And uh that's what they taught that Jesus, Jesus is the foundation, he's he's the rock, or the truth about who Jesus is. And uh so uh I know we wanna come on be be the smart guy and drill down and well it's been 2,000 years we're still arguing with this, and uh we're still leaning back into a dead language that's not spoken anymore, and uh trying to figure out okay, Jesus, what were you actually saying? Uh but then we have scriptures that back up uh what we believe there, so um that's where we stand on that. Uh but I want you to argue it out with him. So dig in, you know, open up Bible hub or uh Bible gateway and jump into the uh different sides of this issue and uh and think about it. But we do know uh I think it's important to know that Peter says it himself that he is our cornerstone, our foundation, and not me. Jesus when Peter says it yeah talking about Jesus. Yeah, talking about Jesus. So I I think his confession first that Jesus is Lord and later in his own writings that he is the rock should settle the issue. But uh like like you said, a lot of people get focused on one little verse and they don't think that another book will help supply the answer, but that's not how the Bible works. Right, right. The Bible is sixty-six books written over fifteen hundred years, it's been two thousand years since that was finished. Um, so we're talking thirty, five hundred years, and it all talks about one person in his name is Jesus the Christ.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yep. If Jesus was appointing Peter as the first Pope, um, like in this long secession of popes, the rest of Scripture, as you keep reading, is kind of weird. Because if that's what was going on, there's some weird things that that happen in the rest of Scripture because the Pope has the authority. Jesus is getting ready to give him, you know, say that I give you the keys. Meaning, all right, here's the keys. You get you go make decisions, whatever you bind and loose, this is gonna be bound and loose in heaven. Um, which I think there's some interpretation we got to talk about on that too. But then you you keep walking, and Peter's gonna do some real unpope, unpoply things. Yes. Uh first and foremost, he's gonna deny Jesus three times. Jesus is gonna look at Peter when Peter rebukes him. When Jesus says, you know, I'm gonna have to die, son of man's gonna have to die on the Peter's like, no, and he says, get behind me, Satan. Well, that's a rough thing to call the Pope.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Uh well, uh before we go there, when you when you say this clarity, right? Um, would someone who who believes that Peter was the Pope, you'll say, Well, Jesus hadn't died and rose again and brought Peter back into the fold and then told him to strengthen his brothers. So Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit then, he wasn't saved. Okay? He he didn't experience salvation yet because Jesus hadn't come out of the tomb. And that would be their answer for that. But then Peter goes on to uh kind of side with the circumcision people when he was with the circumcision people.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

That's that was what was coming up next. So you got Paul looking at Peter going, hey, you better knock that off. You know, I mean just reprimanding the Pope, which is and so now Jesus is ascended to heaven. Peter's out, now he's preached, thousands of people have gotten saved. It's amazing. And then yeah, he gets over this thing, and there's some Jews and there's some Gentiles, and Peter's like, I'm not gonna hang out with those people. Right. And Paul has to go and confront Peter about those things. And here's one a lot of people don't talk about this, it's pure speculation on my part.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Okay, I like the speculation part of this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

But if if Peter was the first Pope, it's odd to me, again, I'm speculating. This is my opinion, this is not gospel, but it's odd to me that Paul then goes on to write 60% of the New Testament. Right. Shouldn't we hear a little bit more from Peter? You know, like if he's the guy in charge, and then you have things like James, the brother of Jesus, who is the leader of the church in Jerusalem, who's making decisions for the entire church. Right, right. Right over top of Peter. I mean, um, Peter's part of the whole discussion thing, sure. But James is the one that comes out and says, here's here's the decision. He's the leader there. So these are very odd things. Like I said, if what we're taking this one verse in Matthew chapter 16, and we're trying to build a doctrine around it, there's some weird things that happen if that's what Jesus meant.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Okay, so let's go back to clarity here. Uh I'm giving you points for your speculation. That was that was well thought out. Um in the first century, when people were recognizing Peter as important, and the third and fourth century, when they're saying, okay, he was the first pope, the idea of infallibility wasn't there yet. Okay, so that the Pope's infallible. So uh back then, third and fourth century, you know, Catholics were like, well, everybody screws up, you know. Later on, they're like, well, the Pope's not ever supposed to screw up. But so I'm just for clarity, uh, when they settled this, they didn't think he was infallible. Okay. And uh that came later on. So I don't want everybody to jump on that and say, well, you know, you guys, this we're taught it's been thousands of years, okay? With an S. You know? 2,000 years. And uh, but before that, he was he was the first Pope, but he was fallible. That didn't come on uh until later. So I just that's just for clarity, so you don't, you know, attack your Catholic friend and say, well, Peter screwed up, you know. Uh so how can he be infallible? Well that that wasn't the belief then, that changed.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

And here's one other thought about Peter is and again, this doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't the Pope, but when he's going around and I think it was Cornelius, tries to bow down and worship him, he tells him to stand back up. You know, he's like, I'm I am an ordinary man just like you. Even the the angel in revelation, when John, so now we're not talking about Peter now, but even when John bows down to the angel in revelation, the angel tells him to stand back up and won't accept worship. And so I think the Pope's claiming worship, I I don't know exactly where the Catholics on all that, but it's we see even as Peter kind of goes from this moment, he never elevates himself into this I'm higher position authority thing. The the rest of the church doesn't elevate him into some higher now. Does he get to to kind of be a mouthpiece? Sure. Yeah, you know, on Pentecost, it's Peter that comes out and delivers the message. Um, so he's a mouthpiece for sure. I I think he speaks just like he does in Matthew 16. He kind of speaks on on behalf of the rest of the disciples. You are the Messiah, uh, the Son of the Living God. That's who you are. And and that's Peter. I and I think God used him that way, but we never see the church or Peter himself elevate him to some other position, other than I'm I'm just another apostle.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Another apostle. So we beat that to death. You know where we stand on that, and um we don't uh we try, uh Ryan and I both try not to um pound a fist taken sides when we there's a clear uh interpret like the petra thing. Well, they wouldn't call a man petra, that's a female term, and so they must have called him something else. And uh, but it meant rock. And that could have been Kifa. We don't know. So we we're not gonna take a position on that. We just believe that when Jesus said, Upon this rock, I will build my church, that we have scriptures that back up what that meant. And uh so that's that's where we rest. That the confession that Peter made that you are um the Messiah, the Son of God. That's um and I I think that's important for us to go on. But now we're not done. We're in a mess. We got another mess to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

I know, running out of time. That took us a lot longer to get through than I was uh planning. So here's verse 19.

Keys Of The Kingdom Explained

SPEAKER_01 38:54

This is what I said I skipped on Sunday. We haven't even talked about this one yet. He says, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven. What are the keys to the kingdom? Is are they only given to Peter? And is God now obligated to bind and loose whatever Peter binds and loose, or whoever else has these keys binds and loose? What do you think on that?

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Well, binding and loosing is uh Jewish uh rabbinic language. And I know a lot of people use this since they're standing in front of Hades and all these other gods, um, which represents demonic influence in the world. A lot of people think that what Jesus is saying here, binding and loosing, is talking about being able to bind Satan and loose uh people that had been uh demonized or whatever. Um that is a real stretch as far as the uh the way I see the scripture. The rabbinic language to bind means to forbid or declare something prohibited, to loose means to permit or declare something allowed. Okay, like the Lord showed Peter that sheet and said, you know, take and eat. Peter said, Oh, I'm not gonna eat that stuff, I've never touched that stuff. And uh God said, You can now. And that was the loosing, okay? And then we have the whole New Testament talking about the binding. Don't do this, don't go there, don't associate with those people. And then then Paul saying, Um all things uh are permissible permissible, but all things are not beneficial. Beneficial. Is that the word in that translation that I'm quoting?

SPEAKER_01 41:14

I don't know what translation you're quoting, but it's usually King James.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

But but some things are not, you know, so what the apostles begin to do profitable. That sounds like a King James word. Yeah. Um what we see happening here is that we're moving out of the law, and Jesus is giving the apostles here's here's the keys, and whatever you permit or whatever you prohibit. Now, understand this, and this is um I'd call it Baptist, but it it's evangelical, Protestant, uh Presbyterian, um, all back in the ages.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

They're talking about something that has been permitted in heaven, and then you will be able to open that up to And I think that's an important distinction because I grew up, you grew up King James Version. I grew up NIV. Let me read this verse to you in the NIV. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. And that's the idea that I think a lot of us have of this verse that we're gonna make decisions down here that God is then obligated to follow because we bound or we loosed, and you better do what we said because you said that that's how it works. The king or the CSB says it differently. It says whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven. And so you kind of got to dig back into the original language here. The Greek future perfect points to the church announcing on earth what God has already decided in heaven. Meaning, this is not the apostles running around making decisions about what's going to be bound and loosed, and God's now like, ah crap. Yeah, what am I supposed to do with that?

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Now I gotta now I gotta change my God has to change his view on different things. Right. No, it's what already happened in heaven. That's what Jesus prayed, right? Your will be done on earth as it is as it is in heaven. Yeah, and that's that's what is and what it was God's will on earth is that people would be saved. That's that's what his will. And when he went to loose on Pentecost, Peter preached that this is not about just Jews and Jews. Anymore, you're all invited.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Well, and and I think, man, this really gets to the heart of what these keys are. And so picture where they're standing, right at the gate of Hades. What are what is the purpose of gates? It's to keep people in. Yeah, keep people in. Keys let people out. Right. You open the door, right? Now people can get out. So they're standing at the gate of Hades. Jesus says, the gates of Hades will not prevail or overcome. I'm giving you the keys. And then Peter goes, you just talked about Pentecost. Peter preaches 3,000 Jews belief. That's Acts chapter 2. Acts chapter 8. Peter and John go to Samaria and the Samaritans receive the Spirit. In Acts chapter 10, Peter preaches to Cornelius, a Roman centurion, the door opens then to the Gentiles. We see as Peter goes through the book of Acts, opening door after door after door, loosing, all these people are now flooding in who were previously kept out. And he's saying, the door is now open. It's open to the Jews, it's open to the Samaritans, it's open even to the Gentiles. This, man, it traces all the way back to God's promise to Abraham. Man, you are going to have a son, and your descendants are going to be as numerous as the stars in the sky. And we see now the church just explode. It goes nuts. And Peter is just opening door after door. And I mean, sometimes Jesus has to kick him in the butt to get him over there. You know, that whole thing coming down, don't you call it unclean. Now go over to this Gentile's house. And he's like, Well, I'm not doing it. You're gonna go do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

But Peter, um, James, Jude, Paul, John begins to show you what's bound in heaven still, and what's loosed is uh the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I I believe that's where we stand on that. Now we could have talked we could talk hours on this, but um this is this is where Ryan and I stand that that this is um to declare something prohibited or to meant to permit um those are the bind and loose, that's that's the words, and uh not something that you can say that then God has to back up from heaven. It's something that's already been done in heaven. God knew what salvation was gonna mean, the law was gonna be fulfilled, and we were gonna walk in the new law, the law of love. And uh so all that stuff was already settled in heaven, but he used the apostles to show us what has been bound and loosed.

unknown 47:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Okay, and that's that's the way we interpret that scripture. Is that clear as mud, everybody?

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Well, and here's here's one final thing I'll say, and then we'll we'll wrap this thing up. Um Catholics believed Peter was given the keys. That's why he has authority, he's the Pope, they would say. If you continue reading, and you don't have to go far, just two chapters. Right, Matthew chapter 18. Jesus says the same thing to the rest of the disciples. He says this, truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven. And so again, he didn't hand out just one set of keys. He looked at the rest of them and said, Here's your set. Go bind and loose. What's already been bound and loosed in heaven, go open the gate. And it's this is important stuff for us to talk about. Is it salvation issues? Some of it. Who is Jesus to you? That's that's a big deal. Yeah, it's a big deal. Is Peter the Pope? We're gonna there's gonna be people who are gonna listen to this podcast and say, bunch of stinking liars.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

The apostle John didn't think he was the Pope. I'm faster than he.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

I love that. Yeah. He beat Peter. Yeah, that's one slow pope.

Bible Study Principles That Keep You Grounded

SPEAKER_01 48:33

But these are they're some of this is just fun things to to discuss, but the heart of this really drives down at when we approach scripture, it's so important that we we keep things in context. We don't allow one one verse, one phrase somewhere to to sideline us where we start building doctrines and theology around something that was never meant to be that. And it it seems like if that's what Jesus was doing here, we'd have a little bit more clarity and fleshing out of what that is that Paul and those guys would talk really about the Pope and how that and we don't see as they lay out the structure of the the New Testament church, we don't see see it laid out that way. And so it's just weird to take this verse and to me and build a doctrine around it.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

It's important. Uh Ryan's gonna teach us Sunday night um how to study the Bible. When you when you're in a position in the Bible, now we believe that it's 66 books written about one person, and it all testifies to itself. Scripture interprets scripture. So if it's unclear where you're at in the Bible, go to somewhere in the Bible that it's clear. And that's what we're asking you to do. And I I think that's important for all of us. Um one of the things that uh hurt the church for a long time was that uh you and I, us baseline whoever we are, you know, the normal Joe, didn't get the scripture and didn't get to look at it themselves. And um and that got away from us for a while. But now we have the scriptures, and I I believe the Lord wants you to study to show yourself approved under God, a workman, not um that not that is a shame, but rightly dividing the word of truth. And it the whole word is the word of truth. So let scripture interpret scripture.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

And uh so where it's not clear in this area, go somewhere where it is very clear. Right. And I think you'll find it.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Yep. It'll keep you from from straying off into some some weird spots and and really keep you grounded in scripture. And listen, when when you're doing all that and it's still you're struggling with it, it's not clear. Ask your life group leader, come come talk to Pastor Tim and myself, shoot us an email. Yeah, you can come to me and I'll send you to Ryan. Well, my email just so happens to be your email. And so uh we we we want to be here to help you wrestle with those things.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Hey, and listen, our answer might be I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

There's some things I know, and there's a lot of things I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Oh man, I can't remember who who was. The more, the more I study and the more I know, the more I realize how much I don't know. Right. We're gonna get to spend eternity uh learning these things. Um, but here's what we do know it's the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth, that reveals to us the deep things of God. Amen. And so as you approach scripture, start with prayer, ask the Lord to speak to you, to make these things clear, and and then keep scripture in context. Allow scripture to interpret scripture. Some of these things get to be fun debates and they're not necessarily salvation issues. Who is Jesus to you matters, and you need to settle that. And so uh that's our prayer for you as we kind of wrap this series up, is for you to really decide and settle who is Jesus for you.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Will you pray

Prayer And Ways To Connect

SPEAKER_02 52:09

for us? Father, I want to thank you for this sermon, this sermon series, even though I I didn't really like the title, but it's been great to argue these things out with you these last few weeks, Father, and especially this last one. Who do you say that I am? Well, I confess right now that you are Jesus, the Son of the Living God, and I place my faith in you. And I pray that everyone who hears this prayer will be convicted to do the same thing. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Thanks again for joining us for this episode of the Midweek Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Let us know how God is using this resource in your life or send any podcast questions or topic ideas to podcast at a freshwind.org. If you would like to support this ministry financially and help us continue offering new resources that equip you to discover more in Christ, simply text any amount to the number 84321. We're so grateful for your support. Make sure to tune in next week for a brand new episode of the Midweek Podcast. Be blessed and have a great week.