A Fresh Wind: 0:09

Welcome and thanks for joining us on this episode of the Midweek Podcast brought to you by A Fresh Wind Church. Each week, our team brings you new content to help you take steps towards Jesus and discover more in Christ. Today's episode is hosted by Pastor Ryan.

Pastor Ryan: 0:27

Hey, welcome back to the Midweek Podcast. Pastor Ryan joined again with Pastor Tim and we are kicking off a new series here on Sunday mornings called the Benefit of Doubt, based off of a book by pastor and author Craig Groeschel and, I think, especially coming off of the Easter sermon, tim. This is a great series for us to jump into. Which man one Easter celebration I know we didn't have a podcast last week, but man Easter here was awesome.

Pastor Tim: 1:00

It was so good. We had an incredible time it rocked.

Pastor Ryan: 1:03

So if you missed Easter, you missed a lot, but you can go back watch the service online. But, man, it was awesome. I love seeing the church so full. We had challenged the church to invite a friend and, man, I think they took it to heart. You know, I was praying God would fill the building and man, he filled it. I thought, man, if we can get 60, 80 people in the first service, that'll make room in the second service. And then we had double that in the first service.

Pastor Tim: 1:31

I was like man, praise the Lord, and we still didn't have room. Still didn't have room in the second service, the.

Pastor Ryan: 1:38

Lord's working Really exciting stuff, and so thank you guys for being a part of that Easter celebration. Thank you for inviting your friends and taking that opportunity to help people discover more in Christ and man. People were making decisions on Easter Sunday and then, you know, jumping into this past Sunday, in the new series the benefit of the doubt we had more people making decisions. Joy and I, we were coming off vacation so we were watching online, but I, you know, you made that offer or invitation for people to accept Christ, and I think there was three or four that responded to that. So really just excited about the lives that are being changed and it's happening every week here. So it's an exciting time to be a part of Fresh Wind, that's for sure.

Pastor Tim: 2:21

Yeah, and this series comes at a good time because as soon as you start coming up on Easter and everybody starts talking about Jesus dying on the cross and resurrecting on the third day, the doubters come out trying to convince everybody that it didn't happen and just trying hey, click on this, I'm going to tell you why this is false, and so forth, and so on. So you have this whole side of the argument where Christians are like, hey, we're going to celebrate this, and then the people who want to. I don't know why they do it.

A Fresh Wind: 3:04

I don't know why they care.

Pastor Tim: 3:06

I know they do it to Christians, but when Ramadan comes out or anything, I don't see anybody posting stuff about Islam or anything like that it's very usually one-sided, isn't it?

Pastor Ryan: 3:18

Yeah?

Pastor Tim: 3:18

it's very blatant. Let's put it that way. You see, all these things, you know, jesus wasn't crucified, or there was never a real Jesus, and you hear it all around Easter everybody wants to be. You know, let's attack that thing and get some clicks and they just want to raise your level of doubt. That's what they're trying to do, and this is a great time to talk about doubts in the Christian faith.

Pastor Ryan: 3:50

Yeah, as we plan sermon series, we're praying through what God would have us to. It's so encouraging, I guess, to see how faithful God is, because just the response Sunday to this sermon series was incredible.

A Fresh Wind: 4:06

And again.

Pastor Ryan: 4:07

We were watching online. But then you and I had a phone call after church and, man, just so many people saying, yeah, I'm in this, I'm wrestling with it, and I was really praying that, coming out of Easter, we would have an opportunity to talk to people specifically who you're addressing here. You know, man, I have my doubts about some of this, and even the disciples did so. You and I both used Matthew 28 in our sermons. I did it on Easter Sunday and then you used it again this past week, but Jesus had resurrected from the dead, shown back up to the disciples, I think, sunday. You said there's 13 recorded times when he reappeared to them in his resurrected form and then when they came to the mountain that day, it says that they worshiped, but some doubted. And I thought, man, we got to lean into that. And so this series is us leaning into that to say, yeah, yeah, some worshiped. Worship.

Pastor Ryan: 5:05

And it's easy to come to church on a Sunday morning and you look at everybody and everyone seems so full of faith, everyone's hands raised. You know everyone's singing along to the songs and um, amen, into the sermon, and, and then we walk out and we're like am I the only one Right. Am I the only one? And I love the fact that the Bible doesn't gloss over this. You know like sometimes you wonder, matthew, why would you write that? Why would you write that some doubted? Well, he wrote it because some doubted.

Pastor Tim: 5:34

Like that's how it happened that day, you know. Yeah, it's important too, because this is the passage that gives the church its mission. This is the passage that defines what the church is supposed to do. And Matthew was like oh yeah, I know all that, but some doubt it, some doubt it.

Pastor Ryan: 5:56

Oh, man, it's one of the reasons I love scripture is it doesn't shy away from that. If I was trying to prove that I am God, that I am Jesus, that I rose from the dead, I'm leaving that out. I want everyone full of faith on fire, ready to go storming the gates of hell. Not some of us doubt it. So I love scripture for doing that. It just shows me, proves even more, that God can be trusted. He's not trying to keep stuff from us. He's not hiding the scary ugly parts of this.

Pastor Ryan: 6:30

No, right out in the open, here it is. They came, they saw Jesus on the mountain, the resurrected Jesus, and they worshiped, but some doubted, and so on Easter I talked about how, you know, they're unsure. What do I do with this? What am I supposed to do with this new reality? I mean, I watched him die, I watched them bury him and now he's standing here. What does all that mean for me and how am I supposed to move forward? And I think a lot of us. We're coming to church and we have some of those same questions. You know, man, I want to believe, or I do believe, in God and I come and I worship and I sing the songs too. But I still have my doubts, and so often we feel like we're alone in that, that we can't talk to anybody about that, that we certainly can't bring it up at church. You know, what would people think if they knew we had our doubts?

Pastor Ryan: 7:28

you know, and so this sermon series, I'm excited for it, as we kind of wade into that and say, hey, this is a, this is a safe place to bring those things in your doubts Don't have to be a dead end, but they can be a doorway to greater intimacy with Christ and you find that all through the scriptures.

Pastor Tim: 7:50

I made a short list of some of the heroes in the Bible who doubted, but not only heroes in the Bible, but the writers of the Bible itself.

Pastor Tim: 8:01

Psalm 73 is the the they call it the doubter song and um. And what's important about this Psalm and that's your homework, everybody should read Psalm 73 and meditate on it this week is that he was looking around and uh and and saying God, do you see this? What kind of decisions are you making up there? Are you paying attention? Look at what's going on. This is what I see.

Pastor Tim: 8:37

And as you move through the psalm, he's wrestling. But he starts and we talked about on sunday that thomas told him, said I won't believe until I touch him, but thomas kept coming back. He kept coming back right and uh, this, this psalmist. He comes back right in the beginning. Uh, he starts talking about who god is and who he knows God is. But God, I got some doubts about how you're running this thing. And then he goes through and shares his doubts with you and then he has an ending and I'm not going to share it with you. I want you to read it. I want you to see that you're not alone. Even 3,700 years ago, there was someone saying God, why did you do this?

Pastor Ryan: 9:27

Yeah, not to spoil the end but to give you the beginning, kind of whet your appetite here a little bit. He says God is indeed good to Israel, to the pure in heart, but as for me, my feet almost slipped I feel that sometimes man, Just in my own life and situations that have happened.

Pastor Ryan: 9:48

And man, to be honest, God has been good. I look at my life and there's a lot of people out there living a lot harder life than I've been fortunate to live. God's been good, he's been faithful. I didn't grow up in some of the houses that people have grown up in or in some of the situations that people have had to go through, Um, but even I am God.

Pastor Ryan: 10:12

Sometimes my feet are slipping, Um. I remember when I thought Ty, when he was four or five years old, um thought he might have a brain tumor. Um, might have a brain tumor crying in the shower, God, what is going on here? This is my son. Feet almost slipped, you know, and I think this is the point of the series, not in this questioning the reality of God, but just why, how you know, and I think that that's where a lot of people are, Um, but then even the situations. As a pastor, you know, you and I, we have the opportunity to counsel and walk with a lot of people um, through their own life situations and trials and struggles. And yeah, life is tough, it's heavy, it is heavy, and so you read something like man. God is indeed good, but I'm struggling.

Pastor Tim: 11:11

Right and we talked about it on Sunday the relatability principle, that we relate better to people who have struggled like we've struggled. Matter of fact, is it in Philippians? I should have looked this up. Anyways, it's the scripture, where God leads you through your struggles so that you can lead someone else through theirs, because people are looking for someone that has been hit in the face.

Pastor Tim: 11:44

I know my sister-in-law, shimmy. She lost her son and people come and talk to her all the time when they lose their children. You know, I don't know how to live now. I don't know, and she can relate and she says I didn't know how I was going to live either. She said I couldn't breathe for two months and so I don't talk about that, that'll get me all messed up. I got all messed up, I already did.

Pastor Tim: 12:20

But those doubts lead us to people who have struggled, and you know I made a joke of it. You know we lean in towards the guys whose kid is screaming and licking the floor in the grocery store. Then the person who's got it all together on Instagram and we want to say you know I can trust him. But why do we trust him? We trust him because they've got doubts too, and you can sit down with that guy, cross a cup of coffee and yeah, I read that book about raising kids too. It's not working and go back and forth and talk about those things.

Pastor Tim: 13:03

But we relate to people with doubts and it's good to point out in the Bible, number one, that a lot of people had doubts and doubts about what God was doing. I just remember the conversation with Abraham and Yahweh when they were looking down on Sodom and Abraham's well, you're going to destroy the whole city. Well, what if there's 100? What if there's 50? I don't know the numbers that came down. What if there's 50? You sure you want to do this, god? He had doubts that this is the way that God should go, what God should do and what God did was rough. And I would be the same as Abraham. Hey, there's kids down there. What are we talking about? And we get, these doubts are real things and we can't ignore them and we definitely can't ignore them in the Bible.

Pastor Tim: 14:09

And if you're a pastor and you preach around those things, shame on you, correct Shame on you. We need to understand that. What Martin Luther heard the Lord tell him the just shall live by faith. The just shall live by faith. The just shall live by faith. You're not going to understand everything. You're not going to know everything, and sometimes, even when you do what we're going to ask you to do here in just a couple minutes by focusing your doubt on answers and letting it motivate you to pursue God instead of turning your back on him, and that's productive doubt, instead of psychological doubt with spirals out of control. And so we're going to talk about that in a minute. But we need you to understand that you're not going to understand everything you know.

Pastor Ryan: 15:06

A great example of that and I think hopefully this is encouraging for somebody as you're in the middle of some of these doubts and these questions. Years ago I had a student in the youth ministry when I was the youth pastor and really just struggling with some of the stuff and decisions that God had made in the Old Testament. I think one verse in particular was about this idea Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, before they were even born. How could a loving God do that? Um and man, I remember sitting around after youth group on you know, sunday nights or after an event that we had, and sometimes half hour hour hour and two hours just going around. We, we went on a missions trip to Nicaragua and uh, and one of the pastors who was helping lead that trip, stationed from Nicaragua. She sat down with him one night after dinner and just for two hours, I think, or more. They went after this idea, like her, trying to reconcile some of these things that happened in the Old Testament and how could a good loving God, things that happened in the Old Testament and how could a good loving God do or allow those things to happen. And what I appreciate is she was really searching for an answer but not getting a satisfactory answer has led her to the point where I believe, to my knowledge, she still has walked away from the faith Even so. Much of this so that her mom sent me an email a couple years ago and was pretty upset with me about how that whole thing unfolded, and I had a chance to kind of explain some of the stuff that went on and conversations that we had.

Pastor Ryan: 17:02

But people have doubts and we're not going to understand everything about God.

Pastor Ryan: 17:08

The just shall live by faith is a key element to this whole thing. To say, yeah, we want you to pursue answers, we want you to use your doubts to dive deeper into Christ, because it can cause you to walk away, it can cause you to be angry at God, or it could be the launching pad to an intimate relationship with God where you know Him as well as a forgiven sinner can know Him. But if you let these one things, you know God. I can't nail down this one thing, and that one thing keeps you from all the other things that you do know about God, about his goodness, about his provision, about his love for you, about how he sent his. There's a lot that I do know, but this one thing what I'm challenging you in this podcast and throughout this series is don't allow that one thing that you might not know or have an answer that's satisfactory at this moment. Don't let that one thing you have questions about derail your faith. Keep pursuing God. He is big enough to handle your doubts.

Pastor Tim: 18:21

And I think that's more important. That's just a. As we were talking before we started this podcast, I said whatever you practice. Whatever you practice when it comes to doubt is going to be how you engage your doubt. And if you let your doubt on and it doesn't even have to be about God, but if it's your doubt about one specific thing over here that you let derail you, then you're going to have one specific thing in the next bunch derail you, and then the next doubt derail you, and whatever you practice becomes your um standard operating procedure when I mean when your feed grows right and so, uh, we're going to talk now a little bit about a productive doubt, what productive doubt looks like, and, uh, and then we're going to talk a little bit about how, uh, psychological doubt can derail not just your faith but your entire life.

Pastor Tim: 19:31

When we were talking about that on Sunday, I said honest doubt, that you just have an honest doubt about whether God is good, that's a good, honest doubt. He's allowed things to happen. God is good, that's a good, honest doubt. He's allowed things to happen. That you would think, hey, I got an issue with that, you know it's got good. Or he's made some claims about what you can and can't do and you want to do some of those things. I would call that that's not an honest doubt, that's a I want to doubt this so I can get out of my guilt and push all this away and go do the thing I want to do.

Pastor Tim: 20:17

So we want to just lay that down. Every time we talk about doubt, we're talking about honest doubts, not doubt to use as a leverage to get me where I want to be and do what I want to do. But a lot of times the honest doubt opens the door for Satan to bring in doubts that will leverage us out. So we've got to respond to our honest doubt in a way that will be constructive, and the best way to do that is to look at it as a signal to deepen your relationship with God.

Pastor Ryan: 20:58

Yeah, I remember when Reed and Dar lost their son and it might have been at the Forge, the men's Bible study we have here on Saturday mornings, where he was just confessing the guys there and he said I was really struggling because I know that God is good, scripture tells me that God is good, but my son's also dead.

Pastor Ryan: 21:19

And he was wrestling with that and he said all right, I believe that God is good. So if there's something in me that is telling me otherwise, then the problem isn't with God, the problem's with me. This is the honest, productive doubt that he says. I need to dive deeper into God's word, I need to know more about him so that he can reveal who he truly is. And coming out of that, he said, I have found that God is still good.

Pastor Tim: 21:51

And it's man. I wish we could eliminate all those struggles. But doubt doesn't mean you're failing, it means you're thinking and it's important to think. It means you're thinking and it's important to think. Christianity is not the dumb man's religion, it is salvation.

Pastor Tim: 22:14

On our part Seems too easy, too simple, but when you study soteriology you realize this is not easy and it's very complex. And God has been after this redemption plan in the garden with Adam and Eve. He mentions it and he was working towards Jesus this whole time. So it's deep and complex on God's side when you start studying it. And I think when we look at Christianity with platitudes, with bumper sticker theology, you know, let go, let God, you know God will work this out for you, whatever the little saying goes, when there's a lot of truth in those little sayings. But it's a whole lot more complex than that. We're complex human beings and we we're gonna doubt and some of that doubt is good. Is that guy gonna stop at his light? Should I go? That doubt is good. You know, um, is that politician telling me the truth? That doubt is good?

Pastor Tim: 23:27

No, the answer is no, a hard no, and uh, we learned those things, unfortunately, the hard way. We grew up, um, believing in Santa Claus and you know, uh, he ate the cookies. Somebody ate the cookies and drank the milk. You know who could it be. And as we grow older, we begin to doubt, and that doubt leads us to what it leads us to truth.

Pastor Tim: 23:53

So there is a productive doubt that we talk about and that's where we want to be. It is an uncertainty or a question in your mind, in your heart, and we're talking about God. So about God or about Christianity, that drives inquiry. It drives critical thinking and problem solving, questioning assumptions and seeking evidence or even just exploring possibilities to achieve clarity in your doubt. And this is productive doubt. It is something that motivates you to get off your butt and cognitively engage, and that's what God wants. And he's always saying hey, seek me with your whole heart and you'll find me. He's like let's engage. Hey, let's wrestle this out or argue this out.

Pastor Tim: 24:56

In Isaiah, one of my favorite scriptures, your sins may be scarlet, but I can make them white as snow, and I want to wrestle with you. With that, he renamed Jacob Israel, which means those who wrestle with God, and that's what he wants to do? He wants to wrestle with those doubts. But when we have doubts and we turn off or we push back or we procrastinate, that's what we would call a psychological doubt that feeds itself and gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So what we want you to do, when you run into a doubt about God, you run into a doubt about a scripture or the Christian faith, this is time for you to engage, engage your mind, your critical thinking, and dive in and start saying, hey, does anybody know about this? And most of Christians? When you have a doubt about Christianity, you're going to run into some big, some big questions that we've all been wrestling with for 2,000 years, since Jesus rose from the dead, which?

Pastor Ryan: 26:11

can I say this should be encouraging. There's almost no question that you can come up with that another Christian. We have an ancient faith and we've talked about this on the podcast a few times. It's thousands of years old and people have been asking these questions to and about God for the past four or 5,000 years. Job, here's a guy wrestling with some of these things, saying God, what is going on here? We've been arguing this stuff for a long time and so the fact that you have doubts, bring them to God. He's not afraid of it and know this, you're not alone. We've been talking about this and here's the key People. We've been arguing it for thousands of years and there's still people who believe that God is good. It hasn't derailed our faith. It doesn't have to derail yours hasn't derailed our faith.

Pastor Tim: 27:12

It doesn't have to derail yours. And I think we're in a social landscape coming out of the Jesus revolution back in the seventies. We're doubting, and this, just coming from my own personal life in Christ and growing up in church, is that doubt became the enemy. Just don't doubt. Well, I want God to do this for me. Just don't doubt, and he'll do it for you. Where's that scripture? You know? Oh, you know here. Let me pluck out some half scriptures here, and and uh, and make this assumption that you can manipulate God if you can eliminate your doubt and listen.

Pastor Tim: 27:51

People, this is not how following Jesus works. He is the God of all creations, he makes all the decisions and sometimes he steps out and does something especially for you, because that's the kind of God he is. Thomas said I need to touch the nail prints in his hands, I need to put my hand in his side. And Jesus showed up and said hey, thomas, put your hand here. And and that's the kind of, that's the kind of God he is. Did he need to do that? No, did he have to do that? Absolutely not. He could have looked Thomas in the face and said Thomas, I'm here, you get it and Thomas would have said I got it. He didn't need to touch Jesus. He was there and talking straight to him.

Pastor Tim: 28:43

And he could have said you know, your doubts embarrassed me, thomas, after three years with you. You embarrassed me, and I think that's how Christians feel about doubt that I'm embarrassing God, so they try to hide it. But what did Jesus do? He didn't come in there and grab him by the shoulder and says I'm here, what are you going to do now? He came in and said here, thomas, this is what you'm here. What are you going to do now? He came in and said here, thomas, this is what you said you needed. I'm going to give it to you. You don't need this, but I'm going to give it to you anyways.

Pastor Ryan: 29:16

Well, and again going back to Matthew 28, that you and I both used is some worship. Some doubted. Very next verse. Jesus came near and said Right and man, easter service.

Pastor Ryan: 29:32

I was trying to emphasize to that moment where there are people up there on the mountain with God, the resurrected Christ, saying I'm just not sure what to do about all this. He could have said are you serious After all of this? Said, are you serious after after all of this? Are you serious? I'm gonna go find some new people? Um, instead, he came near, he commissioned them, gave them purpose, gave them a mission of for their life.

Pastor Ryan: 30:03

Um, he drew near to him and man, I love that about him and he doesn't shy away from those, those things, and it's one of the things I mean you know, years ago when, uh, oh, man, I think we were doing the media club I think is what we called it way back in the day where we would read these books and and we, we picked you picked some books that were pretty challenging, um, to just some of the ideas that Christians hold, um, but all that time I remember you telling, telling us doubts or questions lead to intimacy. When we ask these questions about God, it leads us to intimacy. And that's, man, if we can use our doubts as that way, this doorway to intimacy. That, god. I'm not sure about this and I'm not looking for a way out, like you were talking about earlier. I'm not looking for leverage to use against you so I can get my way in this area. But, god, I want to know you more and I'm not sure.

Pastor Ryan: 31:04

I'm not sure about this. I'm not sure why you would do this or why you would allow that, but, god, I want to see it from your perspective. I want to know what you think on this man. Do we begin to unlock a relationship with God that most people don't experience, because the temptation is to just tune out and shut down, because this is work. Right, this is work, it's work. And when I have doubts, the last thing I want to do usually is go to work. I'm already tired, I'm already worn out, I'm already busy. Now you're saying I need to search these things out and we're saying, yeah, search them out as you do. Scripture says that the Holy Spirit is going to reveal to you the deep things of God.

Pastor Ryan: 31:53

This is when you want to go to the next level in your relationship with God. Search those things out. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you the deep things of God man. You get to know them in a way that most Christians, most people never will.

Pastor Tim: 32:12

We've practiced Christianity in the easy manner. I used to call it church light. You know, let's just make it easy on everybody. Let's try to get everything done on Sunday. We'll go to Sunday school. We'll do our. Get everything done on Sunday We'll go to Sunday school. We'll do our Bible studies. In the evening We'll show up at church. We'll get it all done and we don't have to worry about it the rest of the week. But these doubts that we have and we always say well, this must be from Satan. You think that from Satan you've got a doubt that's going to make you drill into God a little bit more. Do you think that they might not show up? Or God might be pulling them out in you just to get you to talk to them about it? And that's because that's the kind of God he is. We need to be careful, trying to ascertain where that's coming from. But you're right, we're too tired to start. What would you call it? A high order cognitive process of analysis of?

Pastor Ryan: 33:20

finding out.

Pastor Tim: 33:20

I'm already out Right, but this analysis and synthesis and evaluation of different things in the scripture that speak to what you're doubting about and trying to figure out what is going on here and then not being sure that you're ever going to know precisely. But God wants you all wrapped up in that and your mind thinking about it. And that's why devotion in the morning before you start the day, that's when I like to do it read the scripture in the morning, or devotional with the scripture in it. That keys your mind off thinking about God, because somewhere in that day, as you think back on your devotional, you're going to say well, why does that lead to that? Does that make sense?

Pastor Tim: 34:19

I don't know if that makes sense. And then suddenly you've got your own personal cognitive analysis to do, about yourself, about God, about life in general. God loves thinking Christians, not robots.

Pastor Ryan: 34:37

I was just going to say. He wants to teach you how to think about things and this is another verse we use all the time here. But he says take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. You know like, take those doubts, those questions that you have, and make it obedient to Christ. How do I do that? Well, you need some of this cognitive analysis. I need to search out the scriptures, I need to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom and discernment about these things. And that's the hard work. Right, and I know we're tired. I know the last thing you want to do is dive in. But, man, when you take this step and God's word begins to come alive, man, it is water for a thirsty soul man.

Pastor Tim: 35:23

Yeah, you got it. You got it. You got to let your doubt motivate you. It's got to be a motivational drive that doesn't drive you away from something because you just don't want to think about it deeply, you just want to ignore it. It's got to intrigue your curiosity.

Pastor Tim: 35:50

Wait, I've been a Christian for 30 years. How come I don't know this? Do other Christians know this? What's the answer to this? And now we have the ability to research so much more. But the first place to start is an old cross-reference Bible and right down the middle, um, you read a word that uh, or a scripture that you're doubting about, or you have a doubt, and you, you find this scripture and you're like, well, what does this mean? You suddenly just look in the middle of your Bible. You can see all these other scriptures where this thing has been talked about and this word has been used. And that's a great place to start. But we've got with the internet. Now we can really dive in and find really research things. So here's a question a lot of people have about the end of Mark, last chapter of Mark, 9 through 20, I think those are the verses showed up around the fifth century. Okay, and everybody knows that it's not a secret.

Pastor Tim: 37:02

Okay, if you talk to any biblical scholar, either secular or religious, they'll say yeah, that wasn't there and there's a lot of questions about why it's there now. But we know that we got nine guys, early church fathers before the fifth century, who quote those verses that weren't there until the fifth century. And then we've got manuscripts that left a gap for those verses in their manuscripts because they just at the end of Mark, they just they go on to Luke to luke you know, and.

Pastor Tim: 37:48

But they left a gap for them, like they were trying to decide whether something was going to go there or not. And when they got the go ahead to put it in, they were going to put it in or not. And, um, I have, I've studied the scripture and I've taught, and I always bring up, you know, the ending of Mark is not in there till the fifth century, but I had no idea that there was nine guys who quoted Mark. Uh, those verses, nine through 20, um, before the fifth century. And now I'm, I'm, you know, it's opened my mind and it is raised curiosity. And how come? I didn't know that and I would have never known it.

Pastor Tim: 38:29

Looking at a commentary, just one of my dad's big book commentaries. I got them lined up in my office downstairs. I would have never known that looking at that. But the research out there that you can find on the internet is just amazing. And those type of things should fuel your intrinsic curiosity and produce a motivation to resolve that doubt, that uncertainty that you have. But taking what we said in the beginning, that you might not, and um, but taking what we said in the beginning, uh, that you might not resolve it completely. But, man, that I want to know about this is what is what God is feeding you?

Pastor Ryan: 39:18

Yeah, and you're going to say I don't know if I have the time for this, um, but here's what I I what else I know. Um, when you had to buy a new lawnmower, you did some research.

Pastor Tim: 39:30

Yeah.

Pastor Ryan: 39:30

When you were looking at a new pair of, you know, in-ear headphones AirPods versus Bose you did some research. Yeah.

Pastor Tim: 39:38

You wanted the AirPods that each one can work independently of the other, depending on where you're sitting you definitely want to be able to use the left ear pod without the right right.

Pastor Ryan: 39:51

That that's key folks. If you're married, you're married. You need to be able to do that now.

Pastor Tim: 39:57

You can take what are they talking about and do some real research and figure out what are these two married guys talking about.

Pastor Ryan: 40:06

So um, I I'm saying you've done this kind of research before, right, you can apply that same curiosity, that same desire for information and I want to know if I'm going to spend my money on something, I want it to be the best thing I can get. Take that same level of research and say, man, god, I have this question and I want to know what you think about it and dive into it, get lost on the internet for a little bit, or in your Bible or in some commentaries for a while, and search it out and let God reveal to you his heart on that thing. And you're going to come out the other side feeling like man, I'm standing on something. Come out the other side feeling like man, I'm standing on something solid. Right, that doubt, that question, isn't just constantly nagging away at you, eating away at you, because that's the problem.

Pastor Tim: 40:59

If you don't ever address it, it's always there, right. And when you do address it, when you do address it, even when you come out on the other end and you think, well, I kind of get it, but you don't always get it, it builds a resilience, of absolute strength in you that says I can deal with doubt, you know, I, I can deal with it I don't.

Pastor Ryan: 41:19

It doesn't control me.

Pastor Tim: 41:20

Too many christians don't exercise exactly exactly, that's a great way to put it. And, uh, I think you know we've got scientists who do this. Every day they go in. I doubt that that's exactly what's happening when we split this atom. I have no idea how they'd come up with that question, but they're trying to figure it out. And we kind of got my job. I got through school. Now I'm just going to run on the treadmill and I'm I'm not gonna I'm gonna procrastinate about thinking about things that I should probably think about. Uh, that goes with our finances, our uh life insurance. And you know, I don't know how many times people said I need to go over my insurance and see if I'm paying too much for my insurance. I say that too. How many times have I done it? None.

Pastor Tim: 42:13

There's places on the internet says we'll do it for you and and we're like nah, because then at the no cost, no obligation, quote yeah and then at the at the end you say, say I don't want to make a decision about that, I don't want to have to call the insurance agent, make them switch over and all that kind of stuff. It's just I don't want to do that, I don't want to engage. And those things, when we learn to engage with them, can only help us. Let's take that doubt, let's run it down, and then all know how big that doubt is and how much it affects me, whether it's your insurance or it's your soteriology, you know yeah.

Pastor Ryan: 43:00

And so here's here's a little bit of the differences, then, between productive doubt and this kind of psychological doubt that we get stuck in the productive doubt. That's what we're aiming for, that's what we're saying, this honest doubt that leads us to intimacy. Psychological doubt is that doubt where we get all stuck in our head. It impairs our decision-making. This is what probably contributes to things like anxiety and depression, where I'm constantly stuck in this loop. How do I know the difference? I have doubt. How do I know which one of these it is? I think here's some of the key differences to let you know whether you're pursuing healthy or unhealthy doubt. First off, productive doubt is constructive and rational. It's building you up into something right. It's thinking, it's activating that muscle in your brain. Psychological doubt is destructive and it's often irrational, right.

Pastor Tim: 44:00

Filled with generalizations and catastrophizing. And did I say that right? I think so, yeah, where everything's going to go bad. Or if you're thinking about God. Well, he never answers my prayer. He never steps in for me. You know, you start those generalizations or the what-if questions.

Pastor Ryan: 44:23

What if this? What if this? What if this?

A Fresh Wind: 44:26

I mean, that is bottomless, right you can take that to the bottom.

Pastor Ryan: 44:28

What if, what if, what if, what if, what if? Yeah, irrational, productive doubt drives inquiry and growth. You talked about that Psychological doubt undermines confidence and clarity. So when you're saying God, I just man, I don't know. And is this true or are you good? You're moving into that psychological doubt where you're no longer pursuing the truth about God but you're finding things or entertaining things that are undermining your confidence.

Pastor Tim: 44:58

Yeah, it becomes a big mush that your original doubt that got you here. You can't even name it anymore because it's wrapped up in everything else. And that's where Satan steps in when you're doubting about a thing he wants you to be. You're never going to find this answer. Um, this is something that's unknowable about God and you just need to suck it up. You sissy, you know that type of and that's just not your pastor teaching you. Sometimes that's Satan trying to say you know these things about God. You are never going to understand, and you just? Why don't you just relax and quit worrying about it? And he derails us from inquiry.

Pastor Ryan: 45:49

Yep, here's the emotional tone. I guess that would help. You know, productive doubt sparks curiosity, inquiry we talked about. There's this uncertainty, kind of like the disciples on the mountain. I'm not sure what to do with this Psychological doubt. On the other hand, is feelings of anxiety, fear, distress, depression. Those are things that are fueled by that psychological doubt, that endless loop.

Pastor Tim: 46:23

I think one thing we need to understand about this that both of these sides productive doubt and psychological doubt um, they feed each other. Just like you said earlier, it's what you feed is what you're going to have more of.

Pastor Tim: 46:41

And psychological doubt can just run you into. I don't want my husband to leave for work because I just am not sure about him and there's got to be a time where you've got to put faith in something and it can derail you. But those words you use anxiety, you know. Fear that's when it's getting out of control. You should be wondering or uncertain, but when it turns into fear and anxiety, something's wrong. You need to look at that again. Yep, for sure.

Pastor Ryan: 47:21

So here's the difference in outcomes. Then, productive doubt leads to innovation, to learning, resilience we talked about. Psychological doubt leads to that avoidance, that indecision, that mental strain where it's just I'm checking out, I can't even deal with it. So two different outcomes that we're going to see there Control, productive outcome or doubt leads to deliberate. A deliberateness of self-regulated or psychological doubt is involuntary, it's overwhelming.

Pastor Tim: 47:53

I just feel under the weight of this. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's great. Yeah, it's just. I feel that where it just I like that word you said it's involuntary, it just overwhelms me. But on the other side it's self-regulated. Oh, I got a half an hour. I'm going gonna look this up. Oh, my gosh, that's huge. I'm gonna have to come back to this tonight, you know it, it, it's self-regulated, it's deliberate yeah it's like I gotta figure this out and you're.

Pastor Tim: 48:33

But you know, when you're in that mood and that doubt hits you, you just get swamped. It's like walking out into the ocean and you know you don't see that wave and it's just like wham. Yeah, that's a big difference in how you live your life.

Pastor Ryan: 48:51

Yeah, where you pick it up, you look at it and then you put it down, right, and I go back to life and I enjoy the goodness of God. And then I'm going to come back and I'm going to pick that thing up, I'm going to look at it from a new angle and then I'm going to set it back down and I'm going to chew on that for a little bit. It's not that overwhelming consuming. I can't even function right now. Like your snowblower Correct how Like your snowblower.

Pastor Tim: 49:15

Correct. How long have you had it?

Pastor Ryan: 49:16

Two years, at least two years, still can't get it running.

Pastor Tim: 49:20

Every now and then he goes out there and deliberately tries to fix it.

Pastor Ryan: 49:24

I'd stare at. It is what I do, man. I wish you worked. But these are some of the ways that you can begin to know. Which doubt are you feeding, which doubt are you entertaining? That productive, honest doubt that leads you to intimacy, or that unhealthy psychological doubt that's this endless loop that just feeds and breeds anxiety and uncertainty and fear? Um, it's, you're going to grow one of them. Uh, cause doubts are going to come. Even the the best of us have doubts. Um man, who was the famous evangelist, was it? John Wesley? Said at the end of it he's like I just hope that.

Pastor Tim: 50:05

That was Jonathan Edwards.

Pastor Ryan: 50:06

Edwards. People were getting thousands of people getting saved listening to that guy preach and at the end he goes man, I just hope, like, what are you talking about, man? If you aren't in, what hope is there for any of us? That's not where we want you to be. John said I have written these things so that you may know, you have eternal life and Christian.

Pastor Ryan: 50:34

if you search out these things with this productive doubt that you lead it to dive you deeper into God's Word, you can grow a vibrant relationship with Christ where you know Him as well as any forgiven sinner can.

Pastor Tim: 50:49

And if you have got into that spiraling, overwhelming doubt, let me get you started.

Pastor Ryan: 51:03

Specify your specificity did I say that one right Again. I think you got it right. I don't normally get those right, it's good coffee today.

Pastor Tim: 51:23

When you yeah, when you get drilled in on one thing, you can get an answer. But if you let that one thing engage all these other things and it seems so overwhelming, um, just specify uh lord, are you good? Uh lord, how do I know I'm saved? Uh lord, how do I know somebody else is saved? Lord, you know? Whatever that question is that you're struggling with? Um, just say, okay, let's focus on this one and we'll dive in and we'll let all these other things you know cook over here. But I'm going to take one out, I'm going to beat it to death, I'm going to be motivated, I'm going to engage my critical thinking, I'm going to think about this. I'm going to ask God to teach me. I'm going to be quiet before him so he can talk to me. I'm going to do everything I can to let the Lord lay this out for me. And then, once you get there and you've done that, okay, let me reach over here in this mass of whatever and pull one more thing out.

Pastor Ryan: 52:33

You know, it's the difference the way Jesus said it between someone who builds their house on the sand and someone who builds their house on the rock. And a lot of us, our Christian life, is built like a house of cards man. And so you take one and the whole thing comes crashing down. You go to college and you get one professor who starts to poke some holes in some stuff and now your whole house of cards has fallen down. And this isn't a perfect illustration, because I know Jenga blocks eventually fall down too, right. But if you can treat it more like, that Jenga block where you can poke one of those things out in the structure still stands and I can look at it and I can turn it over and I can examine it and then, when God teaches me what that is, I shove it back in and it's strong. You know, I've I'm, I'm not tossed by the every wave in the sea. I stand secure and then grab something else out and I can look at that one and I put it back. But that house of cards, as soon as one of them comes out, the whole thing comes crashing down. And I my fear is too many, too many Christians thing comes crashing down. My fear is too many Christians, our faith, is like that house of cards and one thing will lead it to crash down.

Pastor Ryan: 53:44

Don't let one doubt, one uncertainty about God derail everything, and we've said this from the very beginning there's going to be things that you don't know, and you're going to bring it to God, and and you're not going to come away with an answer that that you feel is satisfactory. Um, we said earlier the just shall live by faith. But you said on Sunday well, the Bible says so doesn't always help, right. And so what are some things that we can do when we don't know, when the answer's not what we hoped or that it feels sure enough, I think. Number one it's important to acknowledge your doubts.

Pastor Ryan: 54:33

Tim said be specific about it. That's a great place to start. Write that thing down and don't just wonder about it anymore. Acknowledge those things and bring it to God, knowing that in those doubts he comes near to us, he draws closer to us. The second thing I think we can do is talk it out, man. Go to your life group and ask your life group leader, or sit down with a Christian mentor or friend that you trust and talk about it. Ladies, go to the ladies' Bible study on Tuesday mornings. Men show up at the forge and, after it's all over, say hey, by the way, I've been thinking about this. That usually happens in the beginning.

Pastor Tim: 55:17

It derails everything, but it's still great Right and because you brought that out, leads us to the next one Seek understanding, not certainty. So when those things happen up at the forge and they say, what about the security of the believer? And we'll talk about, uh, several different studies of soteriology, studies of salvation, we won't talk about just the one. I think is true, you know we'll well, some Christians believe this and some Christians believe that this is how they structure this. And I get understanding without certainty and that's something that Christianity needs to Christians, not Christianity Christians need to say I'm going to try to understand it as much as I can, because sometimes I won't walk away with certainty. There's some things that if you go to like a seminary and you talk to their professors and their theologians and that you were just certain about something, they'll all just roll their eyes at you. And that you were just certain about something, they'll all just roll their eyes at you and we understand it, but certainty you haven't studied enough.

Pastor Ryan: 56:48

Yeah, certainty is a hard thing in any topic to truly nail down. So the goal isn't to eliminate every question, right, but we're trying to build a stronger foundation, something that, when the winds come, I can be secure on. Next thing and I think this is so important you need to, even when there's doubt, stick to your spiritual habits.

Pastor Tim: 57:08

Listen, this is so important because there's a lot of the questions that you have about the faith that the Lord will teach you and you will never even realize you had a question because you stuck to your spiritual habits. You've read through it, you've studied it, the Holy Spirit has taught it to you, but when you're out there alone, you're never engaging with the Lord, you're never learning anything. And suddenly oh.

Pastor Tim: 57:32

I got this huge question what am I going to do? And the Lord says if you would have just kept reading that chapter, I would have showed you.

Pastor Ryan: 57:42

How many times have we stopped short, man? So stick to those habits. Keep praying, keep reading Right, absolutely, even when it's tough, even when you're tired, even when you're uncertain. It doesn't need to be profound every time, it doesn't need to be perfect every time. Stick with it. Next, focus on gratitude, man. Thank God for the good he has done in your life, thank him for the faithfulness that he has shown in your life, and I think when we practice gratitude in that way, it counterbalances the negativity or the uncertainty that we have. And finally, and I want to encourage you, be patient with yourself. We look at some of our you know these spiritual giants that we have. Or we look at some Christian mentors or pastors, and they look so strong and so steady in their faith. I want you to know, as one of your pastors, that has only come through the doubts, not in spite of them.

Pastor Ryan: 58:49

You develop a strong faith when you've gone through some stuff and you've leaned back into God's faithfulness, and so be patient with yourself. This kind of relationship with God takes time. It's why we call it a relationship. It's a journey, and it takes work.

A Fresh Wind: 59:07

Yep.

Pastor Tim: 59:11

And God likes to wrestle. He's like that grandpa that comes in. The first thing he does is he gets down on the ground. Let's wrestle, you know, and and this is this is what he wants he created a phenomenal mind in you and I don't care how smart you think you are, you are not where god wants you to be. He wants you to wrestle with things, and because when we wrestle with them and we win, it's a victory in your life. God loves to engage your mind. He's not looking for blind faith. He wants faith built on a foundation with a cornerstone Jesus Christ and he wants your faith to be strong. Even though there might be some gaps in there, he still wants it to be strong, and he's looking to get you on the floor and wrestle you up.

Pastor Tim: 1:00:05

And so if you're one of those guys, grandpa, please don't touch. No, don't, I don't. I don't feel safe doing this. You know I'm sorry, but that's who God is. He wants to grab a hold of you and get you in the word and in prayer and say let's wrestle this out, let's do it, let's go.

Pastor Ryan: 1:00:25

And you might walk with a limp for the rest of your life. Yes it could happen, but it's a sign that your faith is living, that it's breathing, that it's alive. These things don't have to be a dead end. They can be a doorway to greater intimacy with Christ, and so I think we might have just hit the record for longest podcast we've done.

Pastor Tim: 1:00:46

It was a good one. You were on the ball today, man. I was writing stuff down.

Pastor Ryan: 1:00:52

Here's what. I think. It's probably the longest, because this is so important, it's so real and it's where so many of us are, and so hopefully this has been encouraging for you. We've got a couple more weeks to continue talking about this topic, and so I'm excited for what God's going to do. But, pastor Tim, will you pray for us?

Pastor Tim: 1:01:10

I will, Father. I want to lift up our church and anybody who hears this podcast today that we'll just let our doubts draw us near to you. You promise in James that if we draw near to you, you'll draw near to us and instead of letting doubts make us lean away, that they'll make us lean towards you for a good wrestling match that you're looking to have with us. Father, we want to pursue you with our whole heart. So let our doubts motivate us to answer questions, motivate us to research, analyze, dig deeper, instead of wearing us out. Another doubt. I'm just wear it out. I'm wore out thinking about this. I don't want to think about it anymore. Lord, I pray that your Holy Spirit will rise up in your people and draw them into a questioning search for understanding in their doubts. Father, this is what we're looking for through this series. Father, I pray that you'll teach us that. In Jesus' name, Amen, Amen.

A Fresh Wind: 1:02:29

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